Political Hotsheet
August 14, 2009 7:15 PM

Gun Rights Don't Apply In Domestic Violence Cases, Appeals Court Rules

(IStockPhoto)
Last year's U.S. Supreme Court ruling on the Second Amendment did not, contrary to what you may have heard at the time, resolve very much.

Unanswered are questions about carrying firearms in public, gun sales on government property, firearm registration, guns in government housing, handgun restrictions that aren't exactly the same as the District of Columbia's, zoning and gun stores, and so on. And so far, at least, lower courts have been overwhelmingly hostile to gun owners' rights.

The latest example is a decision late Thursday by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit, which said that a criminal defendant may not be allowed to present a Second Amendment defense to a federal jury in Utah. It came after the appeals court granted an extraordinary emergency appeal, called a writ of mandamus, from the Justice Department after the district judge agreed to allow those jury instructions.

The defendant, Rick Engstrum, has an earlier misdemeanor domestic violence conviction and has been charged with possessing a firearm in violation of a federal law that applies to anyone "who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence." He has pleaded not guilty.

(The prosecution arose when Engstrum broke up with his girlfriend, who subsequently told police that he had a gun in his bedroom. Engstrum voluntarily showed police the gun, which he inherited from his father; there's no evidence he has ever used the firearm, let alone threatened anyone with it.)

Engstrum, reasonably, wanted to argue to the jury that the Second Amendment renders that law invalid, at least when applied to people who show no risk of future violence. (Remember, this is a Utah jury, which raises the odds that jurors are familiar with the right to keep and bear arms, and may even have heard of the concept of jury nullification.)

The Justice Department rejected this idea out of hand. By a 2-1 margin, a Tenth Circuit panel agreed, concluded that the Second Amendment didn't apply, and prohibited those jury instructions. "If the case proceeds to trial, the district court is directed not to instruct the jury on this Second Amendment defense, including not giving the proposed jury instruction," they wrote.

The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.

More interesting is the dissent, written by Clinton appointee Michael Murphy. (An aside: Murphy spent much of his life in Wyoming and Utah, while his colleagues spent most of their careers in New Mexico.)

Murphy wrote:
This court has not yet passed on the constitutionality of (the federal law dealing with domestic violence) in light of District of Columbia v. Heller. That opinion?s recognition of an individual right to bear arms for the defense of self, family, and property, raises substantial questions about how (the law) may be constitutionally applied...

This case presents novel constitutional questions, and I would prefer further briefing before deciding them. I express no opinion on whether the district court's approach is correct, but I cannot conclude the government has met its heavy burden of showing that the district court, in light of virtually no guidance from this court or the Supreme Court, is so far afield that the government is clearly entitled to relief... I would grant a stay of the proceedings below and order further briefing on the constitutional question.


Unfortunately, last year's U.S. v. Heller doesn't provide much in the way of guidance to the lower courts. The majority opinion did say, without elaborating, that "nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings."

That was enough for a federal district judge in Maine, in U.S. v. Booker, to rule that the domestic violence prohibition was constitutional. (Plus, a 2009 Supreme Court decision raised no objections to the domestic violence statute, but without evaluating it in terms of the Second Amendment.)

Douglas Berman, a professor of law at Ohio State University's Moritz College of Law, said on Friday that the panel's decision "shows significant antipathy toward serious consideration of Second Amendment rights."

"Anyone seriously committed to the Second Amendment and gun rights getting serious constitutional respect should be seriously disturbed by how willing and eager lower courts have been to accept federal prosecutors arguments that Heller is of no consequence for an array of broad and severe federal gun possession crimes," Berman wrote.

The bottom line? Forget the rhetoric on both sides after last year's Heller decision. So far, at least, there seems to be few state or federal gun-related laws -- except, perhaps for a complete handgun ban -- that U.S. courts are willing to strike down as unconstitutional.

Declan McCullagh is a correspondent for CBSNews.com. He can be reached at declan@cbsnews.com.
Tags:
second amendment ,
gun rights
Topics:
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Add a Comment See all 121 Comments
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:01 PM EDT
Obama appointed Sotomayor to help him kill the Second Amendment.
Several Second Amendment issues will soon go before the Supreme
Court. Obama strikes again.
Reply to this comment
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:04 PM EDT
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million disidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:07 PM EDT
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:09 PM EDT
China established gun controlin 1935.From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:11 PM EDT
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:04 PM EDT
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million disidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

____________________________________________________

That's hilarious. As though the Russian peasantry of 1929 could afford guns. You totally made that up.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:12 PM EDT
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:13 PM EDT
o_the_potus ... I am a man of truth and honor.
I only post truth and facts..............
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:15 PM EDT
The important thing is to get these guns out of the hands of these ignorant redneck wife beaters. Better they just beat them around the head and shoulders with their fist than blow their heads off with a firearm.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:16 PM EDT
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:13 PM EDT
o_the_potus ... I am a man of truth and honor.
I only post truth and facts..............

______________________________________________________

Hilarious. Care to cite a credible source?
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:17 PM EDT
Since Australia established gun control a few years back ...
Homocides are up 3.2%
Assaults are up 8.6%
Robberies are up 44%
In the State of Victoria alone, homocides with firearms are uo 300%
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:19 PM EDT
Since Paraguay banned handguns in 1974, homicides and violent crime are practically nonexistent.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:20 PM EDT
I am Ur_Majesty ... as such, My word is beyond reproach.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:21 PM EDT
Every since firearms where outlawed on the Mongolian Steppes, life is a virtual utopia and everyone bears nothing but good will to all men.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:23 PM EDT
Since the U.N. banned firearms from the continent of Antarctica, their has never been a single homicide or any violent crime.

...and entire continent, gun and violent crime free.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:23 PM EDT
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:25 PM EDT
It had been prohibited from owning guns in southeast Asia since the Vietnam war and crime is virtually nonexistent.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:25 PM EDT
Guatemala established gun control in in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:27 PM EDT
I guess the important thing is that the courts view the public's right to be safe in their person as preeminent to that of ignorant, wife beating rednecks to murder their wives in the privacy of their own home.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:28 PM EDT
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th century because of gun control: 56 million. Absolute FACTS......
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:29 PM EDT
Next, we need to enforce laws prohibiting those who are two standard deviations below average intelligence from processing firearms.

That would probably cover the few remaining rednecks who aren't wife beaters.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:31 PM EDT
Fact: the number of children killed by firearms maintained in the home -- 4,700 per year.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:32 PM EDT
o_the_potus ... I give you a list of facts and all you can do is come back with total BS....
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:34 PM EDT
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:32 PM EDT
o_the_potus ... I give you a list of facts and all you can do is come back with total BS....

_________________________________________

I always tell the truth. I am ordained clergy -- God as my witness.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:35 PM EDT
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:32 PM EDT
o_the_potus ... I give you a list of facts and all you can do is come back with total BS....

___________________________________________

When you start citing some credible sources, so will I.
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:36 PM EDT
Bush over turned the Clinton gun ban.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:36 PM EDT
by misha256 August 14, 2009 8:31 PM EDT
Read closely the judges and who appointed them in this case you will be very surprised -- the republicans (a Bush 41 and a Bush 43 appointee) where in the majority striking down the defense the democrat was in favor of a full hearing --- backward to everything you allege.



The Justice Department rejected this idea out of hand. By a 2-1 margin, a Tenth Circuit panel agreed, concluded that the Second Amendment didn't apply, and prohibited those jury instructions. "If the case proceeds to trial, the district court is directed not to instruct the jury on this Second Amendment defense, including not giving the proposed jury instruction," they wrote.

The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.

More interesting is the dissent, written by Clinton appointee Michael Murphy. (An aside: Murphy spent much of his life in Wyoming and Utah, while his colleagues spent most of their careers in New Mexico.)

______________________________________________

Excellent post.
by drsuz August 14, 2009 9:09 PM EDT
misha256:

Republician, Democrat or Independent..It doesn't matter. I too believe in cases of domestic violence, the second admendment should not be used as a defense if two conditions apply.

1. The accused was tried and convicted of a crime.

2. The gun was used in the act of the domestic violence
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 9:33 PM EDT
by drsuz August 14, 2009 9:09 PM EDT
misha256:

Republician, Democrat or Independent..It doesn't matter. I too believe in cases of domestic violence, the second admendment should not be used as a defense if two conditions apply.

1. The accused was tried and convicted of a crime.

2. The gun was used in the act of the domestic violence
Like This

_________________________________________________________

What does #2 have to do with it. If an ignorant redneck shows himself to have violent tendencies, that should be enough. Maybe he didn't own a handgun at the time. Maybe he hasn't been emboldened by enough Budweiser to use the handgun yet, but will soon if we don't intervene. Whether or not a firearm was used is irrelevant.
by taebok August 14, 2009 9:44 PM EDT
Hey the_ignorant, did you even read the article?
You're a very disturbed individual, please seek help

The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.
by taebok August 14, 2009 9:49 PM EDT
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:20 PM EDT
I am Ur_Majesty ... as such, My word is beyond reproach.
---------
No, what you are is a delusional nut bar, as such your words should ignored
by Wolf1944 August 15, 2009 6:53 AM EDT
Since Australia established gun control a few years back ...
Homocides are up 3.2%
Assaults are up 8.6%
Robberies are up 44%
In the State of Victoria alone, homocides with firearms are uo 300%

------------------

Why do people keep posting this lie? Since Australia established restrictions on certain kinds of guns in 1996, homicides have in fact declined. In 2007 the Aussies had a record low for homicides. See http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_gun_control_in_australia_lead_to.html

Homicides in Victoria did increase during the first year of the new restrictions: from 7 murders to 19 murders. That's an increase of 12, which is not 300% of 7. But the percentage doesn't mean anything when the numbers are so tiny. In a population of 4.5 million, Victoria only had 19 murders in one year; that's what we should notice.
by Ms_enza August 15, 2009 7:15 AM EDT
good
by nextgenman09 August 15, 2009 9:02 AM EDT
blog trolls are so much fun to best....
by xlib August 15, 2009 9:36 AM EDT
I have the very facts you are presented printed out. I also have a tee shirt that quotes George Mason "the most effectual way to enslave the people is to disarm them." I was never a gun advocate, never. That is until I started doing a bit of research on the thug that was elected to totus. Evidently we are faced with a whole population of Americans that are too hung over on the thug's koolaid.
by xlib August 15, 2009 9:38 AM EDT
o_the_potus-are you really that stupid?? Is it humanly possible or are you too drunk on koolaid?
Listen, libtard, how the hell do you think peasants got their food??
The history presented was fairly early in the 20th century. You know what,you are just too plain stupid to try to get anything through your thick head.
by summarex August 15, 2009 9:45 AM EDT
Wow!
Now it's up to 13 million!
Talk about inflation.

Gun control sucks but so does your understanding of history.
by summarex August 15, 2009 9:52 AM EDT
o_the_potus

Why don't you take your facts back with you to Mongolia. This is gun country and will be forever. A gun-free United States will not be allowed to exist under any circumstance.
by o_the_potus August 15, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
by summarex August 15, 2009 9:52 AM EDT
o_the_potus

Why don't you take your facts back with you to Mongolia. This is gun country and will be forever. A gun-free United States will not be allowed to exist under any circumstance.

_____________________________________________________

Why don't you go drink some Budweisers and watch some NASCAR, redneck. Your lack of discernment is exceeded only be your further lack of discernment.
by o_the_potus August 15, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:25 PM EDT
Guatemala established gun control in in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Like This

__________________________________________________

Of course, firearms for hunting are little match against American made, belt-feed machine guns.
by o_the_potus August 14, 2009 8:33 PM EDT
by misha256 August 14, 2009 8:31 PM EDT
Read closely the judges and who appointed them in this case you will be very surprised -- the republicans (a Bush 41 and a Bush 43 appointee) where in the majority striking down the defense the democrat was in favor of a full hearing --- backward to everything you allege.



The Justice Department rejected this idea out of hand. By a 2-1 margin, a Tenth Circuit panel agreed, concluded that the Second Amendment didn't apply, and prohibited those jury instructions. "If the case proceeds to trial, the district court is directed not to instruct the jury on this Second Amendment defense, including not giving the proposed jury instruction," they wrote.

The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.

More interesting is the dissent, written by Clinton appointee Michael Murphy. (An aside: Murphy spent much of his life in Wyoming and Utah, while his colleagues spent most of their careers in New Mexico.)

_________________________________________________

Excellent post.
Reply to this comment
by woeisme1 August 14, 2009 11:06 PM EDT
The lower courts are hostile to the gun nuts. Well if these ignorant, arrogant, self-righteous southern white red neck republican extremists are considered a part of that group, I say ban them from owning guns until they learn to treat women with some sense of dignity.

Napolitano was right about these extremists. The religious right abuses scripture and they are a dangerous whack job breed of sub-humans.

They should worry about the 2d Amendment. They don't deserve the 2d Amendment. They have no business having guns.
Reply to this comment
by alphaa10 August 15, 2009 2:31 AM EDT
woeisme1-- Your forum name may mean nothing-- and is the same name you used on other forums related to TV programming, as well-- but it can suggest emotional connotations you do not intend.
by woeisme1 August 15, 2009 8:23 AM EDT
alphaa10

Huh????????????
by alliberty August 17, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
woeisme1
Here in liberal California most of the prisons are filled with hispanic and black inmates for violent crimes, and that applies in southern states ( Bureau of Justice Statitics)where blacks are disproportionately in prison for violent crime with guns yet your quick to blame the red neck. What's with the missinformation and hate? I know it fits your liberal agenda to blame others not in your party no matter how the facts are.
by gunownerdan August 14, 2009 11:42 PM EDT
"The peaceable part of mankind will be continually
overrun by the vile and abandoned, while they neglect
the means of self defense."
- Thomas Paine

"The Constitution shall never be construed... to
prevent the people of the United States who are
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at
large is that they be properly armed."
- Alexander Hamilton

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and
debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with
arms for our defense? The great object is that every
man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- President Thomas Jefferson

"Americans have the right and advantage of being
armed -- unlike the citizens of other countries whose
governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
- James Madison

"To disarm the people is the best and most effective
way to enslave them."
- George Mason

"Today we need a nation of minute men; citizens who are
not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard
the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their
daily life and who are willing to consciously work and
sacrifice for that freedom.
The cause of liberty, the cause of American, cannot succeed
with any lesser effort."
- President John F. Kennedy

www.A-HUMAN-RIGHT.com
Reply to this comment
by gunownerdan August 14, 2009 11:42 PM EDT
"The peaceable part of mankind will be continually
overrun by the vile and abandoned, while they neglect
the means of self defense."
- Thomas Paine

"The Constitution shall never be construed... to
prevent the people of the United States who are
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at
large is that they be properly armed."
- Alexander Hamilton

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and
debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with
arms for our defense? The great object is that every
man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- President Thomas Jefferson

"Americans have the right and advantage of being
armed -- unlike the citizens of other countries whose
governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
- James Madison

"To disarm the people is the best and most effective
way to enslave them."
- George Mason

"Today we need a nation of minute men; citizens who are
not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard
the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their
daily life and who are willing to consciously work and
sacrifice for that freedom.
The cause of liberty, the cause of American, cannot succeed
with any lesser effort."
- President John F. Kennedy

www.A-HUMAN-RIGHT.com
Reply to this comment
by salmoc44 August 14, 2009 11:48 PM EDT
the_majesty,
"Bush over turned the Clinton gun ban."

Pure ignorance.
The assault weapons ban expired on September 13, 2004, as part of the law's sunset provision. Bush didn't sign anything to overturn that ban.
Reply to this comment
by gunownerdan August 14, 2009 11:53 PM EDT
This is true, Bush even said he supports the useless assault weapons ban!
by brianbwb-2009 August 15, 2009 12:36 AM EDT
Gun ownership? all for it, Bakookas, .50 caliber, the whole nine yards.

So when the rednecks decide they want to try to fix "the race problem", we can do a "South Africa" number on them, you might remember the video of the pickup full of rednecks riding through a "Black" area in Jo'burg, thinking they could intimidate the residents, a few minutes later they were on their knees begging for their excuses for lives.

It was hysterically funny, and judging by the ethnic hatred being stirred up by the neo pundits, I am destined to laugh yet again.
Reply to this comment
by summarex August 15, 2009 1:51 AM EDT
Yes
Let's remember that gun rights must be for everyone. This country would be a much better place if everyone was well armed. For one we wouldn't need these abusive police departments and three letter agencies. We could police our own communities instead.
by xlib August 15, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
And the elitist one has graced us with his posits. And, as per usual he starts with race, always race, isn't it brian? It's all about the WHITE DEVIL trying to off the black man. As for ethnic hatred, brian, that race card is solely on the left. It gets pulled out whenever convenient.
You know, not everything is about you brian,or AA, get that through your head.
by alliberty August 17, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
Why the "redneck" when here in liberal California hispanics and blacks committ most of the murders related to gang banging. The FBI report said 80% of crimes are committed by gang bangers, not red necks. The fact just doesn't sound politically correct to blame minorities better for a liberal to project it on red necks.
by summarex August 15, 2009 1:48 AM EDT
One of the greatest problems for the gun rights movement is that people like Rick Engstrum who have legitimate grievances against government and its obscene and excessive gun laws, have to fight a concurrent battle to avoid being associated with idiots who bring guns to town hall meetings attended by the president.
Reply to this comment
by alliberty August 17, 2009 11:25 AM EDT
I fail to see the point of being an idiot for bringing a gun to a town hall meeting with the president if he is a legal CCW only that people like summarex has beleived the lie from Daily Beast and Huffington post that CCW people are all red necks and out to kill the first black president.Would an ex felon gang banger because he's a minority, who isn't permitted to own a gun, be allowed by summarex to go to a town hall with the president carrying a loaded gun. I think the felon would get a pass because he was oppressed.
by desertpro August 15, 2009 2:33 AM EDT
o_the_potus:
Sure and your an expert! First people always make the connection that Peasant means poor (it does not) As a matter of fact the primary reason for oppression under Stalin was that he felt th Koolots (peasants) were hording in fact they were in fact better off than a lot of city folk as he took time to get control of the country side. Also you are dead wrong. unting was still at that time inportant in the country areas and guns were passed down through generations. It is intersting that you are so ignorant that you are unaware that Stalin was a murerous dictator. You must have gone to an Ive League School.
Reply to this comment
by desertpro August 15, 2009 2:36 AM EDT
Sorry for the typo "hunting was important" not unting.
Reply to this comment
by alphaa10 August 15, 2009 3:36 AM EDT
IS IT SOMETHING THE COURTS SAID?

CBS/Resident GOP columnist Declan McCullagh said, "... And so far, at least, lower courts have been overwhelmingly hostile to gun owners' rights..."
---

A flaming genealization, if ever there were one, for even McCullagh. Is this an editorial column?

Contrary to McCullagh's opinionated reportage, lower courts have read the law, which is not being "hostile" to anybody. That McCullagh should put it as, "hostile to gun owners' rights" places his POV close alongside the K Street lobby industry.

But not among professional journalists.

In fact, K Street might be a good career option for McCullagh, now that his checkered career at reporting the news has received one more check.

It is far easier to give McCullagh high marks for his articles on cyberwarfare and web security. Perhaps, that venue does not place such demands upon his sense of objectivity.

The Scalia majority opinion delivered in U.S. vs. Heller made one thing strikingly clear-- even Scalia does not maintain the Second Amendment as an absolute. That joins the longstanding, classic viewpoint even the First Amendment is not an absolute.

As with the debate between biblical fundamentalism and biblical scholarship, failure to sustain an absolute proposition does not compromise the larger principle, but provides the context and nuance it must have.

That makes U.S. vs. Heller of great significance, and anything but a case which, as McCullagh puts it, "doesn't provide much in the way of guidance to the lower courts."
Reply to this comment
by the_majesty August 15, 2009 4:18 AM EDT
The truth is, if Obama or any other politician tries to end the
Second Amendment or disarm America. They will be voted out of office, along with anyone that supports them.
Reply to this comment
by woeisme1 August 15, 2009 8:19 AM EDT
the_majesty....you're obviously a young, not too educated person with altogether too much time on your hands.

Your ignorant bias against Obama is way old, just like the fascist extremists you worship.
by Wolf1944 August 15, 2009 7:14 AM EDT
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million disidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

-------------

And what relevance does this have to the case in this article? Does it say anything about taking all guns away from everybody? Does it say anything about the government turning into an Eastern despotism?
Reply to this comment
by xlib August 15, 2009 9:34 AM EDT
The relevance of the post is trying to give you and other libs a history lesson on what has happened in the past in countries where the government had such control that they were disarmed. The facts presented are validated on snopes.com or you can go to www.rense.com/general81/ligun/html.
If you can't see the relevance of history than you are obviously a product of the obama/ayers educational system.
There is a quote from George Mason "the most effectual way to enslave the people is to disarm them."
by ffoulkes-2009 August 16, 2009 2:26 AM EDT
Governments don't tend to make a grab for all weapons at the same time. They slowly, gradually increase their restrictions until they finally have them.
by luke_4u August 15, 2009 7:36 AM EDT
I fail to see how any court in the good ol USA can tell anybody what defense they can or can't use. In "this" country as American citizens, we should be able to defend ourselves any way we choose. If the jury buys our defense then good for us, and if they don't then we can try again on appeal. This country is certainly no longer what the founding fathers intended it to be. Little by little our rights are taken away, one small piece at a time, and we are becoming more and more of a "police state" every day.
Reply to this comment
by woeisme1 August 15, 2009 8:17 AM EDT
And you can thank all the republican extremists for that.
by the_majesty August 15, 2009 11:10 AM EDT
woeisme1 --- NO NO NO ... You can Thank the democrats.
They are the ones that are Anti-gun & Anti-Second Amendment.
The democrats are the ones that want to disarm America.
by gunownerdan August 16, 2009 4:01 AM EDT
If the American citizens had any sense at all, we would realize that BOTH the dirty democrats and the rotten republicans are trying to destroy what's left of our constitutional rights!
by artorus August 15, 2009 7:45 AM EDT
Let's just neuter anyone we consider dangerous. Or better yet, lobotomize them.

/s
Reply to this comment
by AOCGUY August 15, 2009 9:26 AM EDT
While I'm all for requiring gun safety courses for individuals who wish to use guns, licensing individual firearms has more to do with collecting tax revenue than it does controlling who will own one. And safe gun courses are already in abundance sponsored by the NRA, Boy Scouts, gun ranges etc.

From this post you might believe that I am an gun-toting NRA caring card emember. Nothing could be further from the tructh. I do belive, however, that gun-ownership by resposnible people poses no threat to anyone and that licensing (ownership) laws do nothing to keep guns out of the hands of the criminal element nor can we predict when a responsible gun owner might crack and use a gun in an irresponsible manner.

I'm somewhat bothered by this article as it doesn't refer to what the defendent did to get a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. He may have simply grabbed is partner without her consent. And as the article states, there is no evidence he has ever even fired the gun in question. There has to be some common sense applied here.
by winchester70 August 15, 2009 9:28 AM EDT
Your father should have been neutered. And you, apparently, have been lobotomized.
by Hosheen August 15, 2009 7:45 AM EDT
Something all of the anti-gun nuts (and they ARE nuts, as in crazy) cannot grasp is that no gun law ever prevented a criminal from obtaining a firearm. Not one, not ever.

Brazil, where I live, is a case in point. Here, it is almost impossible for a private individual to own a fire arm. Yet, the police are often outgunned by the criminals. Only a couple of months ago, a neighbor was raided and police confiscated three handguns. There is no evidence to even suggest that this individual is a criminal (other than illegal possession of firearms) but he was able to obtain not one, but at least three, weapons.

Instead, how about requiring a license to own a firearm? Like a driver's license or pilot's license, it would not indicate that you own a car or plane, but that you are qualified to do so. You have had training in the safety, care, and use of a firearm and have passed a test on those issues.

This will not prevent criminals from owning guns, but will ensure more responsible gun ownership for everyone else.
Reply to this comment
by MikeSettles August 15, 2009 2:19 PM EDT
The British began their slide in 1903 with the passing of a licensing law for "high capacity" revolvers ("You can kill six people without reloading!"). This at a time when violent crime there was all but non-existent. It took the do-gooders about 100 years, but legal gun ownership is all but gone now, the Bobbies must be armed, (unlike before), no one even has the right to self defenses, and violent crime rates are still climbing - oh, and the criminals are smuggling guns in from outside the country.

Licensing may begin as a tax measure, but all too often ends with confiscation.
by johnbrown8888 August 15, 2009 8:09 AM EDT
The Bushit "Justice Department" argued against Heller. The Repigs are very happy to take your guns away. They think only the private security guards of rich people should be able to own guns. They are far too dangerous to leave in the hands of the peasantry.

The idea that Repiglicans protect Second Amendment gun rights is ludicrious.
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by servantRdw August 15, 2009 8:18 AM EDT
I'm thinking that all the posters on here are RETARDED, yes I said RETARDED. There is nothing in the second that's states you can't have a gun if you slap your momma or the wife, while both of these so called crimes have there own punishment. Some retard came up with the idea, hey lets take their guns away if we arrest them and they arrest all even if it's a heated debate between lovers, if the laws called, someone's going down to the pokey. The reason I say everyone's retarded on gun laws is it seems you can't read, if you could read and understand what it says then you would not be here whining about gun laws you would march your white A$$ down to the states attorney and swear out a complaint and have the real offender against the constitution arrested no matter who the are, the justice dept., police, judges, etc... what a novel idea
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by hungry1968-16 August 15, 2009 8:23 AM EDT
by Hosheen August 15, 2009 7:45 AM EDT
Something all of the anti-gun nuts (and they ARE nuts, as in crazy) cannot grasp is that no gun law ever prevented a criminal from obtaining a firearm. Not one, not ever.







How do you know?

You can't even BEGIN to guess that a statement like that might be correct!
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by xlib August 15, 2009 10:01 AM EDT
Hey hungry, another shooting on the east side. Go figure. Those rednecks sure have come north, haven't they?
Go outside, we're having summer this week.
by nextgenman09 August 15, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
Gun Bumpkins are a hoot. They don't even know the history of firearms in America. How there's been gun control from the very beginning.
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by MikeSettles August 15, 2009 3:02 PM EDT
Your state is overbroad and an obvious attempt to belittle folks who are better educated in history than you are:
There was an attempt at a gun control law in the 1820s, thrown out by the state court, as being "repugnant to the 2nd Amendment". I don't remember which state - YOU look it up.
After that, 14th Amendment was enacted in 1866 directly to counter southern states, during Reconstruction, who were attempting to bar former slaves from their 1st and 2nd Amendment rights.

Yep: The earliest gun control laws were racist.
by alliberty August 17, 2009 11:43 AM EDT
Before the 1936 Firearm Control Act US citizens could own machine guns without registration or having to pay a tax. Citizens at the time had better arms then the military yet the murder rate was not higher then now.Before 1936 during the frontier days civilians had lever actions while the military still used single shots, there were no massacres in every town nor was there mass school shootings.
by rocketjl August 15, 2009 9:49 AM EDT
Seems that when we have mad dogs in judges robes, they make/invent laws which, in their words, takes priority over the Constitution of the United States. Where do these guys comes from?????????
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by andacar August 15, 2009 9:51 AM EDT
I guess what I have never understood in this debate is the willingness of each side to take such extreme positions. The anti gun lobby seems willing to ban all guns, which is clearly unconstitutional. But the gun lobby loves to cite paranoid and improbable warnings of boots in the night, especially recently, despite the fact that Obama has never said anything about rounding up guns and gun owners. And has anybody ever bothered to define "arms"? The Consitution was written in a time when they were referring to a musket with a short accurate range and a firing rate of perhaps two rounds per minute if you were good. A friend of mine once defined arms as anything he can hold in his hand. By that standard a SAM launcher is a "gun". There is no hint at compromise from anyone, only frakizoid ravings about government conspiracy and nonexistent roundups. When has there ever been any such program?
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by MikeSettles August 15, 2009 2:46 PM EDT
Andacar: The new pres changed his tune during the runup to election last year. In the US and Illinois senates, he never saw a gun control law he didn't like, and stated that he prefered to ban hand guns and "assault weapons". When he began to campaign for the presidency, he then said "we're not coming for your guns". But the people he appointed to key positions in his administration are all avowed proponents of gun control, to include wishing for total bans: Emanuel, Holder, Clinton, etc.
You must define "Arms" in the vernacular of the times that the constitution was written. But with respect to the "militia", it has been held by courts that the citizen would show up equipped with whatever type weapons the soldier of the day would have - individual weapons (rifles, pistols, swords, knives, clubs, etc.), and provided by himself. The type that every Soldier might carry into combat, not crew-served weapons or any such. I suspect that the Founders may have been smart enough to use the term "Arms" so as to make a broad definition, and not limiting to the weapons of that time.

I hold that EVERYONE has the right to self-defense, and when anyone infringes on the right, they defy a guarantee listed in the Bill of Rights as Amendment II. I also hold that the misuse of ANY right must bring consequences, including death or incarceration. Pre-emption, however, is also illegal under the Bill of Rights. Laughtenberg is pre-emptive, as are all gun control laws. While the police may not act until AFTER a crime has been committed, it seems the Congress thinks it can.
While a person is incarcerated, they have had legally removed almost all rights, but once their debt to society is paid, those rights MUST be reinstated.
If an individual proves himself to continue to be a threat to society, then remove him from it - incarceration or death. Don't leave him in society with reduced rights - that just creates an underground of people who "go around" their restrictions, in order to live and prosper.
by nextgenman09 August 15, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
Poor wittle RINOtards. Fake Republicans who don't even know the history of gun control in America. Its always been there.
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by rocketjl August 15, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
Odd, that someone mentioned how long gun control has actually been in place. I don't remember the exact gun control rules the three times I went to Vietnam. My government just gave me a gun, with all the free ammunition I wanted and told me to go kill, so they could count the bodies. Go figure. I will tell you the good side about having a gun handy, every time somebody tried to kill me, I was able to defend myself and my friends. A lot of bad guys died trying to kill me and their friends ducked a lot, because I was able to shoot back. Go figure.
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by nextgenman09 August 15, 2009 10:02 AM EDT
Boo Hoo Hoo. Poor little fake republican Limbaugh lovers. They screeched at anybody who didn't agree with them for 8 years while Cheney was President and now when they get it thrown back in their faces they weep like Barbra Streisand.
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by xlib August 15, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
Not one of your best posts there fella. You gotta try harder.
by zonkzilla August 15, 2009 10:08 AM EDT
First- 99% of domestic violence cases do not involve guns or knives and I'm not getting the headling.
Second - No one takes away my guns except God, period, so what any court says has no meaning to me on the issue.
Third - The right wingers said Obama is taking our guns away so once again their babbling is nothing but a pack of lies.
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by AK-47_Justice August 15, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
The defendant, Rick Engstrum, has an earlier misdemeanor domestic violence conviction and has been charged with possessing a firearm in violation of a federal law that applies to anyone "who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence." He has pleaded not guilty.
************************


This RED state bozo was found in possession of a firearm in violation of federal law. He and the rest of you republican'ts can whine and cry all you want about the 2nd Amendment, but FEDERAL LAW is cut and dry on this issue, and he will never be able to legally own a firearm due to his previous law-breaking days! PERIOD!
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by alliberty August 17, 2009 11:57 AM EDT
Wow blue state California has a higher murder rate then red state Utah. California is the ideal gun control state according to The Brady Campaign. Your utopia is so wonderfull with it's endless murdering gang bangers. In ten years without further criminal record he can reapply through the ATF to get his gun rights back.
by AK-47_Justice August 15, 2009 10:40 AM EDT
The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.

More interesting is the dissent, written by Clinton appointee Michael Murphy. (An aside: Murphy spent much of his life in Wyoming and Utah, while his colleagues spent most of their careers in New Mexico.)
*********************************************


It also appears that you partisan republican'ts missed the fact while attacking President Obama and his new SCOTUS appointee, that it was 2 bushevik appointees that laughed at the 2nd Amendment defense, and a Clinton appointee to the bench that wrote the DISSENTING OPINION!

Seems as if the republican't appointees lost your case for you!
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by oneofmanyvets August 15, 2009 10:46 AM EDT
"If you can't see the relevance of history than you are obviously a product of the obama/ayers educational system." You would be correct if you wrote 'Annenberg educational system'. Walter and Leonore Annenberg funded the work of Obama, Ayers and many others who sought educational excellence in Chicago. The Annenbergs as you well know were republicans and close friends of the Bush family along with several other prominent republican kahoonas.
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by the_majesty August 15, 2009 11:23 AM EDT
Obama appointed Sotomayor to the Supreme Court to vote against
Second Amendment issues. If the Second Amendment is Restricted
in any way, under Obama's watch. He will be a ONE TERM president.
Please make note of this .......... Mr 2258
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by Lawyers-Guns-n-Money August 15, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
by the_majesty August 14, 2009 8:13 PM EDT
o_the_potus ... I am a man of truth and honor.
I only post truth and facts..............
==========================

Man of truth and honor? You're a rube.

You are comical though. We should keep you around for the entertainment value, if nothing else.
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by gunownerdan August 16, 2009 4:06 AM EDT
Learn about the racist roots of gun control in America.
Watch "NO GUNS FOR NEGROES" for free at JPFO.org or
search for "NO GUNS FOR NEGROES" on youtube!
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by s416 August 16, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
Canada, Norway, Britain, Sweden, Denmark instituted handgun control laws. From 1970-2009, 150 MILLION people have not been murdered
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by alliberty August 17, 2009 12:13 PM EDT
Cambodia during Pol Pot had gun control, Rwanda during the genocide had gun control. Only countries with gun control in the late 20th century their people were victims of genocide or ruled by dictatorships.No country giving liberal gun rights to its people were never victims of genocide or ruled by a dictator. The Europeans were not murdered because the US military protected them and prevented them from being over run by the USSR who committed mass murder and oppression. Gun control did nothing to save the lives of these people it was our military.
by jimverdolini August 16, 2009 11:42 AM EDT
This is exactly how the existing court behaved after the 14th Amendment. The sitting courts did not like the idea that blacks should/did have the same rights as whits nor did they like the idea that all the precedent on the issue of rights was obsolete so they ignored the 14th. 11 years after the 14th was passed in large part to insure blacks had the same rights as whites in gun ownership to protect themselves and families from the KKK, we had the Supreme Court in Cruikshank decide the federal government has no role in protecting black gun rights, assembly rights, speech rights or voting rights...We are still arguing about incorporating the 2nd amendment against the states as we have almost all other basic protections against government excess. One can lead a court to the Constitution but one cannot make them drink.
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by s416 August 16, 2009 12:00 PM EDT
I believe I have a second Amendment right to own Scud missiles and Nukes. My militia rights shall not be infringed in any way, or you are Anti-American. An H-bomb would fit perfectly into my arsenal, to add to my cop killer bullets, nerve gas agents, and chemical weapons. Since I am rich, I'm also looking for some Pershing missiles, and to add to my hand grenade , and land mine collection(to scatter on my estate-lest any Liberals try to take away my rights) My rights to own these agents of destruction shall not be INFRINGED, you Commies! LOL
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by winchester70 August 16, 2009 1:47 PM EDT
As funny as the ,in the immortal words of Elvis Presley, "A turd in a punchbowl".
by alliberty August 17, 2009 12:18 PM EDT
Your funny. There is a differnce between individual weapon for the soldier and crew served weapons for the group such as the squad.
by alliberty August 17, 2009 12:43 PM EDT
According to Nation Fact the top ten countries with the highest murder rates all have strict gun control.
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by alliberty August 17, 2009 12:47 PM EDT
Most americans were poor during the american revolution yet they could still buy guns. Most who fought against the crown under Gen. Washington were poor. The guns were not available to th russian peasants so there was no way to know if they can afford them.
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by alliberty August 17, 2009 12:51 PM EDT
How do you know he's a red neck. There are minorities, ghettos and gang bangers in Utah. Maybe your liberal bias can only see red neck as a gun owner doing the drive bys.
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by alliberty August 17, 2009 12:54 PM EDT
Ever since South Africa instituted gun bans it has the second highest murder rate next to gun control Columbia. Those people in S. Africa constantly live in fear.
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by s416 August 17, 2009 4:59 PM EDT
They should just put bullets in boxes of Cap'n Crunch
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