Gun Rights Don't Apply In Domestic Violence Cases, Appeals Court Rules

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Unanswered are questions about carrying firearms in public, gun sales on government property, firearm registration, guns in government housing, handgun restrictions that aren't exactly the same as the District of Columbia's, zoning and gun stores, and so on. And so far, at least, lower courts have been overwhelmingly hostile to gun owners' rights.
The latest example is a decision late Thursday by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit, which said that a criminal defendant may not be allowed to present a Second Amendment defense to a federal jury in Utah. It came after the appeals court granted an extraordinary emergency appeal, called a writ of mandamus, from the Justice Department after the district judge agreed to allow those jury instructions.
The defendant, Rick Engstrum, has an earlier misdemeanor domestic violence conviction and has been charged with possessing a firearm in violation of a federal law that applies to anyone "who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence." He has pleaded not guilty.
(The prosecution arose when Engstrum broke up with his girlfriend, who subsequently told police that he had a gun in his bedroom. Engstrum voluntarily showed police the gun, which he inherited from his father; there's no evidence he has ever used the firearm, let alone threatened anyone with it.)
Engstrum, reasonably, wanted to argue to the jury that the Second Amendment renders that law invalid, at least when applied to people who show no risk of future violence. (Remember, this is a Utah jury, which raises the odds that jurors are familiar with the right to keep and bear arms, and may even have heard of the concept of jury nullification.)
The Justice Department rejected this idea out of hand. By a 2-1 margin, a Tenth Circuit panel agreed, concluded that the Second Amendment didn't apply, and prohibited those jury instructions. "If the case proceeds to trial, the district court is directed not to instruct the jury on this Second Amendment defense, including not giving the proposed jury instruction," they wrote.
The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.
More interesting is the dissent, written by Clinton appointee Michael Murphy. (An aside: Murphy spent much of his life in Wyoming and Utah, while his colleagues spent most of their careers in New Mexico.)
Murphy wrote:
This court has not yet passed on the constitutionality of (the federal law dealing with domestic violence) in light of District of Columbia v. Heller. That opinion?s recognition of an individual right to bear arms for the defense of self, family, and property, raises substantial questions about how (the law) may be constitutionally applied...
This case presents novel constitutional questions, and I would prefer further briefing before deciding them. I express no opinion on whether the district court's approach is correct, but I cannot conclude the government has met its heavy burden of showing that the district court, in light of virtually no guidance from this court or the Supreme Court, is so far afield that the government is clearly entitled to relief... I would grant a stay of the proceedings below and order further briefing on the constitutional question.
Unfortunately, last year's U.S. v. Heller doesn't provide much in the way of guidance to the lower courts. The majority opinion did say, without elaborating, that "nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings."
That was enough for a federal district judge in Maine, in U.S. v. Booker, to rule that the domestic violence prohibition was constitutional. (Plus, a 2009 Supreme Court decision raised no objections to the domestic violence statute, but without evaluating it in terms of the Second Amendment.)
Douglas Berman, a professor of law at Ohio State University's Moritz College of Law, said on Friday that the panel's decision "shows significant antipathy toward serious consideration of Second Amendment rights."
"Anyone seriously committed to the Second Amendment and gun rights getting serious constitutional respect should be seriously disturbed by how willing and eager lower courts have been to accept federal prosecutors arguments that Heller is of no consequence for an array of broad and severe federal gun possession crimes," Berman wrote.
The bottom line? Forget the rhetoric on both sides after last year's Heller decision. So far, at least, there seems to be few state or federal gun-related laws -- except, perhaps for a complete handgun ban -- that U.S. courts are willing to strike down as unconstitutional.
Declan McCullagh is a correspondent for CBSNews.com. He can be reached at declan@cbsnews.com.
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See all 121 CommentsSeveral Second Amendment issues will soon go before the Supreme
Court. Obama strikes again.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million disidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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That's hilarious. As though the Russian peasantry of 1929 could afford guns. You totally made that up.
I only post truth and facts..............
o_the_potus ... I am a man of truth and honor.
I only post truth and facts..............
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Hilarious. Care to cite a credible source?
Homocides are up 3.2%
Assaults are up 8.6%
Robberies are up 44%
In the State of Victoria alone, homocides with firearms are uo 300%
...and entire continent, gun and violent crime free.
That would probably cover the few remaining rednecks who aren't wife beaters.
o_the_potus ... I give you a list of facts and all you can do is come back with total BS....
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I always tell the truth. I am ordained clergy -- God as my witness.
o_the_potus ... I give you a list of facts and all you can do is come back with total BS....
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When you start citing some credible sources, so will I.
Read closely the judges and who appointed them in this case you will be very surprised -- the republicans (a Bush 41 and a Bush 43 appointee) where in the majority striking down the defense the democrat was in favor of a full hearing --- backward to everything you allege.
The Justice Department rejected this idea out of hand. By a 2-1 margin, a Tenth Circuit panel agreed, concluded that the Second Amendment didn't apply, and prohibited those jury instructions. "If the case proceeds to trial, the district court is directed not to instruct the jury on this Second Amendment defense, including not giving the proposed jury instruction," they wrote.
The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.
More interesting is the dissent, written by Clinton appointee Michael Murphy. (An aside: Murphy spent much of his life in Wyoming and Utah, while his colleagues spent most of their careers in New Mexico.)
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Excellent post.
Republician, Democrat or Independent..It doesn't matter. I too believe in cases of domestic violence, the second admendment should not be used as a defense if two conditions apply.
1. The accused was tried and convicted of a crime.
2. The gun was used in the act of the domestic violence
misha256:
Republician, Democrat or Independent..It doesn't matter. I too believe in cases of domestic violence, the second admendment should not be used as a defense if two conditions apply.
1. The accused was tried and convicted of a crime.
2. The gun was used in the act of the domestic violence
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What does #2 have to do with it. If an ignorant redneck shows himself to have violent tendencies, that should be enough. Maybe he didn't own a handgun at the time. Maybe he hasn't been emboldened by enough Budweiser to use the handgun yet, but will soon if we don't intervene. Whether or not a firearm was used is irrelevant.
You're a very disturbed individual, please seek help
The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.
I am Ur_Majesty ... as such, My word is beyond reproach.
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No, what you are is a delusional nut bar, as such your words should ignored
Homocides are up 3.2%
Assaults are up 8.6%
Robberies are up 44%
In the State of Victoria alone, homocides with firearms are uo 300%
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Why do people keep posting this lie? Since Australia established restrictions on certain kinds of guns in 1996, homicides have in fact declined. In 2007 the Aussies had a record low for homicides. See http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_gun_control_in_australia_lead_to.html
Homicides in Victoria did increase during the first year of the new restrictions: from 7 murders to 19 murders. That's an increase of 12, which is not 300% of 7. But the percentage doesn't mean anything when the numbers are so tiny. In a population of 4.5 million, Victoria only had 19 murders in one year; that's what we should notice.
Listen, libtard, how the hell do you think peasants got their food??
The history presented was fairly early in the 20th century. You know what,you are just too plain stupid to try to get anything through your thick head.
Now it's up to 13 million!
Talk about inflation.
Gun control sucks but so does your understanding of history.
Why don't you take your facts back with you to Mongolia. This is gun country and will be forever. A gun-free United States will not be allowed to exist under any circumstance.
o_the_potus
Why don't you take your facts back with you to Mongolia. This is gun country and will be forever. A gun-free United States will not be allowed to exist under any circumstance.
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Why don't you go drink some Budweisers and watch some NASCAR, redneck. Your lack of discernment is exceeded only be your further lack of discernment.
Guatemala established gun control in in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Of course, firearms for hunting are little match against American made, belt-feed machine guns.
Read closely the judges and who appointed them in this case you will be very surprised -- the republicans (a Bush 41 and a Bush 43 appointee) where in the majority striking down the defense the democrat was in favor of a full hearing --- backward to everything you allege.
The Justice Department rejected this idea out of hand. By a 2-1 margin, a Tenth Circuit panel agreed, concluded that the Second Amendment didn't apply, and prohibited those jury instructions. "If the case proceeds to trial, the district court is directed not to instruct the jury on this Second Amendment defense, including not giving the proposed jury instruction," they wrote.
The two judges who slapped down the Second Amendment defense were both Republican appointees. Paul Kelly was a George H. W. Bush appointee, and Harris Hartz was a George W. Bush appointee.
More interesting is the dissent, written by Clinton appointee Michael Murphy. (An aside: Murphy spent much of his life in Wyoming and Utah, while his colleagues spent most of their careers in New Mexico.)
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Excellent post.
Napolitano was right about these extremists. The religious right abuses scripture and they are a dangerous whack job breed of sub-humans.
They should worry about the 2d Amendment. They don't deserve the 2d Amendment. They have no business having guns.
Huh????????????
Here in liberal California most of the prisons are filled with hispanic and black inmates for violent crimes, and that applies in southern states ( Bureau of Justice Statitics)where blacks are disproportionately in prison for violent crime with guns yet your quick to blame the red neck. What's with the missinformation and hate? I know it fits your liberal agenda to blame others not in your party no matter how the facts are.
overrun by the vile and abandoned, while they neglect
the means of self defense."
- Thomas Paine
"The Constitution shall never be construed... to
prevent the people of the United States who are
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at
large is that they be properly armed."
- Alexander Hamilton
"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and
debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with
arms for our defense? The great object is that every
man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry
"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- President Thomas Jefferson
"Americans have the right and advantage of being
armed -- unlike the citizens of other countries whose
governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
- James Madison
"To disarm the people is the best and most effective
way to enslave them."
- George Mason
"Today we need a nation of minute men; citizens who are
not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard
the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their
daily life and who are willing to consciously work and
sacrifice for that freedom.
The cause of liberty, the cause of American, cannot succeed
with any lesser effort."
- President John F. Kennedy
www.A-HUMAN-RIGHT.com
overrun by the vile and abandoned, while they neglect
the means of self defense."
- Thomas Paine
"The Constitution shall never be construed... to
prevent the people of the United States who are
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at
large is that they be properly armed."
- Alexander Hamilton
"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and
debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with
arms for our defense? The great object is that every
man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry
"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- President Thomas Jefferson
"Americans have the right and advantage of being
armed -- unlike the citizens of other countries whose
governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
- James Madison
"To disarm the people is the best and most effective
way to enslave them."
- George Mason
"Today we need a nation of minute men; citizens who are
not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard
the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their
daily life and who are willing to consciously work and
sacrifice for that freedom.
The cause of liberty, the cause of American, cannot succeed
with any lesser effort."
- President John F. Kennedy
www.A-HUMAN-RIGHT.com
"Bush over turned the Clinton gun ban."
Pure ignorance.
The assault weapons ban expired on September 13, 2004, as part of the law's sunset provision. Bush didn't sign anything to overturn that ban.
So when the rednecks decide they want to try to fix "the race problem", we can do a "South Africa" number on them, you might remember the video of the pickup full of rednecks riding through a "Black" area in Jo'burg, thinking they could intimidate the residents, a few minutes later they were on their knees begging for their excuses for lives.
It was hysterically funny, and judging by the ethnic hatred being stirred up by the neo pundits, I am destined to laugh yet again.
Let's remember that gun rights must be for everyone. This country would be a much better place if everyone was well armed. For one we wouldn't need these abusive police departments and three letter agencies. We could police our own communities instead.
You know, not everything is about you brian,or AA, get that through your head.
Sure and your an expert! First people always make the connection that Peasant means poor (it does not) As a matter of fact the primary reason for oppression under Stalin was that he felt th Koolots (peasants) were hording in fact they were in fact better off than a lot of city folk as he took time to get control of the country side. Also you are dead wrong. unting was still at that time inportant in the country areas and guns were passed down through generations. It is intersting that you are so ignorant that you are unaware that Stalin was a murerous dictator. You must have gone to an Ive League School.
CBS/Resident GOP columnist Declan McCullagh said, "... And so far, at least, lower courts have been overwhelmingly hostile to gun owners' rights..."
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A flaming genealization, if ever there were one, for even McCullagh. Is this an editorial column?
Contrary to McCullagh's opinionated reportage, lower courts have read the law, which is not being "hostile" to anybody. That McCullagh should put it as, "hostile to gun owners' rights" places his POV close alongside the K Street lobby industry.
But not among professional journalists.
In fact, K Street might be a good career option for McCullagh, now that his checkered career at reporting the news has received one more check.
It is far easier to give McCullagh high marks for his articles on cyberwarfare and web security. Perhaps, that venue does not place such demands upon his sense of objectivity.
The Scalia majority opinion delivered in U.S. vs. Heller made one thing strikingly clear-- even Scalia does not maintain the Second Amendment as an absolute. That joins the longstanding, classic viewpoint even the First Amendment is not an absolute.
As with the debate between biblical fundamentalism and biblical scholarship, failure to sustain an absolute proposition does not compromise the larger principle, but provides the context and nuance it must have.
That makes U.S. vs. Heller of great significance, and anything but a case which, as McCullagh puts it, "doesn't provide much in the way of guidance to the lower courts."
Second Amendment or disarm America. They will be voted out of office, along with anyone that supports them.
Your ignorant bias against Obama is way old, just like the fascist extremists you worship.
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And what relevance does this have to the case in this article? Does it say anything about taking all guns away from everybody? Does it say anything about the government turning into an Eastern despotism?
If you can't see the relevance of history than you are obviously a product of the obama/ayers educational system.
There is a quote from George Mason "the most effectual way to enslave the people is to disarm them."
They are the ones that are Anti-gun & Anti-Second Amendment.
The democrats are the ones that want to disarm America.
/s
From this post you might believe that I am an gun-toting NRA caring card emember. Nothing could be further from the tructh. I do belive, however, that gun-ownership by resposnible people poses no threat to anyone and that licensing (ownership) laws do nothing to keep guns out of the hands of the criminal element nor can we predict when a responsible gun owner might crack and use a gun in an irresponsible manner.
I'm somewhat bothered by this article as it doesn't refer to what the defendent did to get a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. He may have simply grabbed is partner without her consent. And as the article states, there is no evidence he has ever even fired the gun in question. There has to be some common sense applied here.
Brazil, where I live, is a case in point. Here, it is almost impossible for a private individual to own a fire arm. Yet, the police are often outgunned by the criminals. Only a couple of months ago, a neighbor was raided and police confiscated three handguns. There is no evidence to even suggest that this individual is a criminal (other than illegal possession of firearms) but he was able to obtain not one, but at least three, weapons.
Instead, how about requiring a license to own a firearm? Like a driver's license or pilot's license, it would not indicate that you own a car or plane, but that you are qualified to do so. You have had training in the safety, care, and use of a firearm and have passed a test on those issues.
This will not prevent criminals from owning guns, but will ensure more responsible gun ownership for everyone else.
Licensing may begin as a tax measure, but all too often ends with confiscation.
The idea that Repiglicans protect Second Amendment gun rights is ludicrious.
Something all of the anti-gun nuts (and they ARE nuts, as in crazy) cannot grasp is that no gun law ever prevented a criminal from obtaining a firearm. Not one, not ever.
How do you know?
You can't even BEGIN to guess that a statement like that might be correct!
Go outside, we're having summer this week.
There was an attempt at a gun control law in the 1820s, thrown out by the state court, as being "repugnant to the 2nd Amendment". I don't remember which state - YOU look it up.
After that, 14th Amendment was enacted in 1866 directly to counter southern states, during Reconstruction, who were attempting to bar former slaves from their 1st and 2nd Amendment rights.
Yep: The earliest gun control laws were racist.
You must define "Arms" in the vernacular of the times that the constitution was written. But with respect to the "militia", it has been held by courts that the citizen would show up equipped with whatever type weapons the soldier of the day would have - individual weapons (rifles, pistols, swords, knives, clubs, etc.), and provided by himself. The type that every Soldier might carry into combat, not crew-served weapons or any such. I suspect that the Founders may have been smart enough to use the term "Arms" so as to make a broad definition, and not limiting to the weapons of that time.
I hold that EVERYONE has the right to self-defense, and when anyone infringes on the right, they defy a guarantee listed in the Bill of Rights as Amendment II. I also hold that the misuse of ANY right must bring consequences, including death or incarceration. Pre-emption, however, is also illegal under the Bill of Rights. Laughtenberg is pre-emptive, as are all gun control laws. While the police may not act until AFTER a crime has been committed, it seems the Congress thinks it can.
While a person is incarcerated, they have had legally removed almost all rights, but once their debt to society is paid, those rights MUST be reinstated.
If an individual proves himself to continue to be a threat to society, then remove him from it - incarceration or death. Don't leave him in society with reduced rights - that just creates an underground of people who "go around" their restrictions, in order to live and prosper.
Second - No one takes away my guns except God, period, so what any court says has no meaning to me on the issue.
Third - The right wingers said Obama is taking our guns away so once again their babbling is nothing but a pack of lies.
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This RED state bozo was found in possession of a firearm in violation of federal law. He and the rest of you republican'ts can whine and cry all you want about the 2nd Amendment, but FEDERAL LAW is cut and dry on this issue, and he will never be able to legally own a firearm due to his previous law-breaking days! PERIOD!
More interesting is the dissent, written by Clinton appointee Michael Murphy. (An aside: Murphy spent much of his life in Wyoming and Utah, while his colleagues spent most of their careers in New Mexico.)
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It also appears that you partisan republican'ts missed the fact while attacking President Obama and his new SCOTUS appointee, that it was 2 bushevik appointees that laughed at the 2nd Amendment defense, and a Clinton appointee to the bench that wrote the DISSENTING OPINION!
Seems as if the republican't appointees lost your case for you!
Second Amendment issues. If the Second Amendment is Restricted
in any way, under Obama's watch. He will be a ONE TERM president.
Please make note of this .......... Mr 2258
o_the_potus ... I am a man of truth and honor.
I only post truth and facts..............
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Man of truth and honor? You're a rube.
You are comical though. We should keep you around for the entertainment value, if nothing else.
Watch "NO GUNS FOR NEGROES" for free at JPFO.org or
search for "NO GUNS FOR NEGROES" on youtube!
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